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Again radar tickets thrown out... 5 5 1

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1 Again radar tickets thrown out... on Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:28 am

JTF


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Precedent set
Photo radar ticket quashed — it wasn’t about safety
_________________________________

http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/columnists/tom_brodbeck/2010/10/08/15638896.html




David MacKay says he was travelling north on Henderson Highway about 6 p.m. on June 8 — a Tuesday — just north of Bonner Avenue when he noticed the flash from a mobile photo radar vehicle. He checked his speedometer and says he was only going about 63 km/h in a 60-km/h zone.

He noticed virtually every car behind him also triggered a flash, but observed they weren’t speeding either.

MacKay, president and CEO of Canadian Association of Agri-Retailers, wasn’t about to let this one go. He got a ticket for $215 but decided to fight it in court by pleading not guilty.

MacKay says he wasn’t speeding. But that’s not what ultimately got him off the hook.

In court, MacKay — who worked for Mayor Sam Katz during the 2006 municipal election as a speech writer — cross-examined the commissionaire who issued the ticket.

He asked him if he knew where the school in question was located. After all, if it’s a school zone, there should be a visible school located nearby.

The commissionaire said he had no idea.

“I’m not aware of a school anywhere in the area and I’ve lived there for 10 years,” said MacKay. “There just happens to be a nice convenient place for him to park.”

In fact, there is a school nearby. But you can’t even see it from Henderson Highway. It’s about 200 meters east of the location, past several buildings and up a narrow, winding road. I checked it out.

The location where MacKay was nabbed is marked with school zone signs. But no reasonable person could possibly consider this area a school zone. The school, John G. Stewart, is far removed from the Henderson Highway location.

Nailing motorists there at 6 p.m. on a weekday well after school hours obviously has nothing to do with promoting safety for children and is contrary to the province’s photo enforcement legislation.

So the ticket was quashed. And a precedent has been set.



What about playgrounds at 8:00 am?

Are kids expected to be in them playing?

Is this the next quashing to happen?

2 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:40 am

grumpy old man


administrator
administrator
This just proves the point that it never was about safety. In this case it looks like they invented a school zone to satisfy the technical needs of the law in order to trap peeps.

I'm a little more forgiving when it comes to playground zones regarding time-of-day. It seems unlikely kids will be playing there at 6am it is likely to see them there at 6 or 8pm.

The point in this case is the kids could be on their way to or home from the park.


_________________
Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

3 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:45 am

grumpy old man


administrator
administrator
One thing that concerns me is Larry Stefaniak's position on cell phone fines and smoking in cars with children present fines.

He calls the former a cash grab and wails about needing laws for "people drinking hot beverages, steering with their knees while they try to eat messy fast food, or women putting on make up". There are laws on the books to deal with those scofflaws.

But to fight the specific cell phone law because there are no specific laws on the books for the other moronic things us drivers do? Seems pretty lame to me.


_________________
Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

4 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:16 am

Jondo


major-contributor
major-contributor
This was the caller we've been waiting for. When David reported this court outcome - we were thrilled. Of course this is the precedent that brings to question all location selection. They've been caught tricking people in non-construction zones and now non-school zones. At what point does this program lose it's atanding. If it was an expense program (shouldn't safety cost money rather than make money) it would have been shut down long ago. People - this issue is more than about money - it's about what the system can do - if we allow it. Step up, reject this nonsense and help us end it - including ending the careeers of politicians who continue to pretend they don't know what we're talking about. That will be the real and meaningful precedent going forward,

5 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:03 am

EdWin


major-contributor
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What is the speed limit going through a school zone (within school hours) in Winnipeg; 30 or 50 kpms?

6 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:14 am

grumpy old man


administrator
administrator
Depends on what street you're on. On Pembina Highway for example it is 60kmh. And in unmarked residential areas (residential side streets), I believe it is 40kph. Not certain there...


_________________
Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

7 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:17 am

EdWin


major-contributor
major-contributor
In Alberta, during regular school hours, it's 30 kmph through school zones, be it residential street, major thoroughfare or highway. I was warned about this when I first got out here.

8 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:20 am

grumpy old man


administrator
administrator
If the speed limit along a roadway in a school zone is 80kmh drivers are expected to slow to 30kmh? I'll bet that rarely happens...


_________________
Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

9 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:29 am

Deank


contributor eminence
contributor eminence
unmarked residential is 50


_________________
Why do we call them fingers if no one has ever seen them fing?

10 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:30 am

Deank


contributor eminence
contributor eminence
In all the other places I lived, the school zone 30 was mostly respected by the drivers.

Of course I never lived anywhere that was stupid enough to put a school in an 80 zone.


_________________
Why do we call them fingers if no one has ever seen them fing?

11 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:30 am

EdWin


major-contributor
major-contributor
grumpy old man wrote:If the speed limit along a roadway in a school zone is 80kmh drivers are expected to slow to 30kmh? I'll bet that rarely happens...


There are highways (albeit not too many I don't think) where the speed limit is 100 kmh, and you are expected to slow down to 30 kmh during school hours; Leslieville Alberta along Highway 11 between Red Deer and Rocky Mountain House is an example of this. There is a huge crackdown in the province at the moment for speeders in school zones. From what I understand, either they are talking about making fines for speeding in schools zones several hundreds of dollars, or that that is already the case. This is in part because too many people have been speeding in these areas over the last couple of decades.

12 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:44 am

grumpy old man


administrator
administrator
Deank wrote:unmarked residential is 50
...in a school zone also?


_________________
Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

13 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:47 am

Deank


contributor eminence
contributor eminence
in winnipeg there is no school zone speed. ie if its 80.. its 80 (but the most I have seen is 60)


_________________
Why do we call them fingers if no one has ever seen them fing?

14 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:09 am

JTF


Closed account
Closed account
Jondo.

Was it you that was asking about the law / decision from awhile ago regarding the photo enlargement aspect of the ticket?

As you may recall, a magistrate threw out a ticket because the photo from the camera is too small to make out the province, never mind the numbers, on a plate.

They simply enlarged the photo...which wasn't part of the legislation.

Anyone know if that has been changed, or what the outcome was?

15 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:27 am

AGEsAces


moderator
moderator
I was in court in the spring for something...and there was a guy trying to argue that the photo was too small to read what Province the plate was from.

The prosecutor basically told him it HAD to be a Manitoba plate, as if it wasn't, they would not have been able to issue the ticket.

He tried to argue that it could have been someone with an Ontario plate the same as his, and that he was issued a ticket for something an Ontario driver did...to which the Prosecutor replied...when the system is checked, it checks the plate vs. the type of vehicle to see if they match...if not, the ticket is thrown out before it ever gets issued, if they match...the ticket is mailed.

http://www.photage.ca

16 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:32 am

AGEsAces


moderator
moderator
grumpy old man wrote:One thing that concerns me is Larry Stefaniak's position on cell phone fines and smoking in cars with children present fines.

He calls the former a cash grab and wails about needing laws for "people drinking hot beverages, steering with their knees while they try to eat messy fast food, or women putting on make up". There are laws on the books to deal with those scofflaws.

But to fight the specific cell phone law because there are no specific laws on the books for the other moronic things us drivers do? Seems pretty lame to me.


What's the concern their Grumpy?

ALL laws that introduce fines are cash grabs...it's plain and simple.

The seatbelt law - a cash grab
Cellphone law - cash grab

If they were about safety...they would force automakers to install devices in their vehicles that a car can't be started without the driver's seatbelt being locked.

If it were about safety, they would force automakers to install devices to BLOCK cellphone calls, unless using an installed handsfree device.

PLUS (and again, I've said it before)...THE LAWS WERE ALREADY IN PLACE to address both items...particularly the cellphone ban...as it applies to the makeup, eating, drinking, having sex, etc. called (depending on where you live): Driving with distraction, careless driving, reckless driving.

As far as the smoking thing goes...it has nothing to do with driving...it's more the "endangerment of a child"...yet there's no law about people smoking in their homes with children present (i'm not recommending it...just pointing it out)...and I don't think I've ever noticed someone smoking in a vehicle without rolling the window down an inch or two (with or without kids)...and through simple physics...the large majority of the smoke is dissipated by doing so.

http://www.photage.ca

17 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:40 am

Jondo


major-contributor
major-contributor
AgeAces is nice to see there are still some thinkers left out there. Thanks for putting it out there.

18 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:21 pm

grumpy old man


administrator
administrator
You're funny aa. No one more than you has railed against adding laws for specific issues while claiming there are already laws on the books to deal with those issues.

I don't agree all fines are cash grabs. There needs to be a way to punish those who's actions endanger others. While I don't LIKE the cell phone law I agree with it. Ditto any charges resulting in fines because some twit believes applying make-up while driving is a smart move.

I also agree we need red-light cameras. But not applied in a way that traps people. BIG difference than not fining idiots that run lights when not trapped in the dilemma zone or because the yellow light it intentionally shortened.

BUT Stefaniaks' argument is let's fight cell phone and smoking in cars with kids laws because there are no other SPECIFIC laws protecting us specifically against the idiot applying makeup while driving?


_________________
Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

19 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:23 pm

grumpy old man


administrator
administrator
Jondo wrote:AgeAces is nice to see there are still some thinkers left out there. Thanks for putting it out there.

People you don't agree with always tagged as non-thinkers?


_________________
Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

20 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:35 pm

Jondo


major-contributor
major-contributor
You should properly reframe that as - people who understand the simple facts and those who don't. Understand the distinction because it's kind of a biggie - if it's context you're looking to discover rather than a response to a rhetorical statement with a question mark at the end.

21 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:48 pm

AGEsAces


moderator
moderator
grumpy old man wrote:One thing that concerns me is Larry Stefaniak's position on cell phone fines and smoking in cars with children present fines.

He calls the former a cash grab and wails about needing laws for "people drinking hot beverages, steering with their knees while they try to eat messy fast food, or women putting on make up". There are laws on the books to deal with those scofflaws.

But to fight the specific cell phone law because there are no specific laws on the books for the other moronic things us drivers do? Seems pretty lame to me.


You mean this quote you posted?

Cause I didn't see anything in the article about it.

This is just saying the same thing I am...in reverse order.

This is basically saying "why do we need a cell phone law if we're not going to make one to apply to all the other idiotic things, as there are already laws in place for ALL of them, including the cell phones".

http://www.photage.ca

22 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:48 pm

grumpy old man


administrator
administrator
Jondo wrote:You should properly reframe that as - people who understand the simple facts and those who don't.

On whose terms Jondo? Recently you've defaulted to snarky responses whenever people have made opposing comments.

In Stefaniak's case, his was not a rhetorical statement against the obvious, it was a recruitment for more business to his firm.

"You don't like this ticket for smoking with children in your car? Come see me and I'll fight it for you."

It was this that displeased me.


_________________
Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

23 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:48 pm

Jondo


major-contributor
major-contributor
Actually that's not Larry's position at all. There exists law applying to imprudent driving - they just need to be applied. That law is enforceable regardless of whether you're eating a hamburger or putting on make-up while driving. Funny how people don't ever mention the need to have a law against mothers producing a dozen FAS children including other total abandonment parental actions - however they will parade in favor of this or the next law. With or without your agreement - you were getting this law. You should be more concerned about that aspect of your future than anything else.

24 Re: Again radar tickets thrown out... on Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:49 pm

grumpy old man


administrator
administrator
AGEsAces wrote:
grumpy old man wrote:One thing that concerns me is Larry Stefaniak's position on cell phone fines and smoking in cars with children present fines.

He calls the former a cash grab and wails about needing laws for "people drinking hot beverages, steering with their knees while they try to eat messy fast food, or women putting on make up". There are laws on the books to deal with those scofflaws.

But to fight the specific cell phone law because there are no specific laws on the books for the other moronic things us drivers do? Seems pretty lame to me.


You mean this quote you posted?

No, in another post about the most recent cell phone crackdown.


_________________
Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

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